definitely took the hit and you owned it and said he did not do a good job. but it's not like he did that lying down, karen. you all came back and you said that mitt romney was untruthful, that he had his facts wrong. there was all that, too. >> but he did. my point is that with regard to our own guy's performance, we took it. we said, you know what, he didn't do as well as we would have liked. the truth is that mitt romney did lie. we can't just let these things -- this campaign has been notable for the lack of truthfulness coming from the romney-ryan team. we just can't take that anymore without pushing back on it. >> you know, joe, one observation i made, joe, was that mitt romney looked like he had been an excellent student for the few days leading up to the event, that he had studied certainly prepared. it was almost like he was going through an oral board exam or something and he just shot back with facts and figures and the like. but you know, were all those facts and figures absolutely correct? a lot of people have been challenging them. >> well, i think they were.